tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post8238285426305355061..comments2024-03-09T03:20:20.004-05:00Comments on Tenured Radical: How Will We Write The History Of The Man In The Mirror; Or, Who Was Michael Jackson (To You)?Tenured Radicalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-66567692997125827952009-07-09T19:12:50.466-05:002009-07-09T19:12:50.466-05:00All his songs came out again lately after his deat...All his songs came out again lately after his death. This also means that he wasn't existing at all until now. But he is indeed the King of Pop for having performed pretty good every time. I also found this <a href="http://www.mjcomeback.com/" rel="nofollow">Michael Jackson</a> comeback book that will surely become a valued collector’s item.Binghttp://www.mjcomeback.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-31237862395442838412009-07-05T10:32:35.552-05:002009-07-05T10:32:35.552-05:00TR, a sincere thank you for the response.
WRT how...TR, a sincere thank you for the response.<br /><br />WRT how parts of your text require the reader to draw connections between the concepts "LGBT/queer" and "pedophile/child molester," this is not my imagination: the only two examples you give of pedophilia being something more "interesting" or "radical" (excusable?) than plain ol' child molestation are LGBT-related. It's almost like saying, "Here are some pedantic ways that people (specifically, gays) have of attempting to defend child sexual abuse..."<br /><br />And, this one might be stretching it, but I'd even count the unsolicited evocation of the "popularly held, yet mistaken" notion that most child molesters are gay ("And, btw, most of the people who give unwanted sexual attention to children identify as heterosexual.") as contributing to popular discourse that connects "gay" and "child molester." Imagine I told you that, believe it or not, most of the child molesters out there actually <i>aren't</i> university professors that keep blogs.<br /><br />In no way did I mean to suggest that discussion of child abuse be halted for fear of offending or stigmatizing people; it's just that let's make sure discussion of child abuse is discussion of child abuse. And of course as a writer, you don't have responsibility for other people's homophobia, but in my opinion, you have a responsibility to understand the ways your text will contribute to popular discourse.<br /><br />The last comment I made was essentially to add to the discussion of child abuse: maybe there's a lot more out there that we don't classically call "child abuse" but should. My specific thoughts were primarily about how we gender children (e.g., telling a child how they should feel/think/behave based on the gender we've assigned them without regard for how the child actually feels/thinks or wants to behave).Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13748622697744911930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-16308288725891525042009-07-04T08:01:38.868-05:002009-07-04T08:01:38.868-05:00Greg:
I think the association of whiteness with f...Greg:<br /><br />I think the association of whiteness with femininity -- particularly upper-class femininity -- is just as powerful as whiteness=racial *identity* (or rising above racial identity.) But I understand why people might quarrel with that.<br /><br />As to "child molester=a *queer* pedophile: no. I don't think anything but a reader's own imagination and homophobia makes that a reasonable reading of that passage (and as a writer, I don't think I am responsible for other people's homophobia.) And while I do agree the phrase is loaded, I don't think our concerns about stigmatizing LGBTQ people should keep us from talking about sexual harm to children altogether. I am actually a little stunned at how much concern there is for MJ's reputation, compared to how little many of his fans seem to think of the children he was involved with as real people whose lives are of consequence. <br /><br />And, btw, most of the people who give unwanted sexual attention to children identify as heterosexual.<br /><br />Your last point I'm not sure I understand. But I am engaged in a lot of historical research about the various forms of what we call "child abuse" right now, and a classic ingredient is children being told by an adult what they *should* be feeling. I don't think that drawing a bigger theoretical picture that argues this is just what sex *is* (which in a certain sense, I'm sure is true) makes forcing children to give an adult sexual pleasure, or any other kind of pleasure ethical. It's a projection fantasy: the fact that wanting your child to be the doctor you didn't have a chance to be is also a projection fantasy doesn't make it ok to diddle the kids and tell them how nice it feels.<br /><br />And btw, I think the emphasis should not just be on the sex act as we conventionally understand it. MJ may have done exactly what he said, and frankly my guess is that very few children would get in bed -- a very intimate and loaded space -- with an adult who is not a parent if they were not coerced into it. Crossing boundaries with children, asking them to be physically or emotionally intimate in any way to give *yourself* pleasure is wrong -- and it's wrong between adults too, as all kinds of harassment litigation would point to.Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-60012491424036747582009-07-03T11:06:56.096-05:002009-07-03T11:06:56.096-05:00Forgive my naivete, but I'm curious to underst...Forgive my naivete, but I'm curious to understand how "Michael's whiteness was more transgendered than transracial", if you care to expand. I must also agree with Steven's comment. And in response to TR's response, I don't think the point is that "of course there really <i>are</i> children who are sexually abused," but rather that that particular section of the post contributes to and perpetuates popular discourse about "the child molester", not the least of which forces readers to draw connections between "queer/LGBT" and "pedophile". With regard to "being told that what you are feeling is good when it feels bad" (and in no way am I saying this does not constitute a part or form of abuse), isn't this what happens to anyone who doesn't fit a particular socially constructed category in exactly the way that our particular culture/society would have?Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13748622697744911930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-35389624764271773002009-07-01T20:20:21.809-05:002009-07-01T20:20:21.809-05:00David: *so* glad to hear from you. And thanks fo...David: *so* glad to hear from you. And thanks for the comment.Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-60738466686188111842009-07-01T19:52:39.990-05:002009-07-01T19:52:39.990-05:00OH MY GOD I LOVE YOUR HEADER PHOTO.
Um, hi, by th...OH MY GOD I LOVE YOUR HEADER PHOTO.<br /><br />Um, hi, by the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-86005617111457508222009-07-01T17:44:12.804-05:002009-07-01T17:44:12.804-05:00Your response to the child molesting issue is as i...Your response to the child molesting issue is as important as your original post. What's missing, still, from rhetorical and fantastical GLBT theories are the codynamics of abuse, molestation, assault. The power to silence and be silenced is obviously a key factor in the circus that was and is the Jackson family. So most of this has been conjecture in MJ's particular history. But it will be interesting to see how his death enables these grown men to talk about about their childhood relations with MJ. Seeing now the reports of just how many young men and boys spent their time in his living quarters on a regular basis, even in the last few years, reminds me of the secrecy involved in monasteries around the world still. My favorite part of the movie Doubt was when the child's mother evidences the sorts of practical and painful decisions to remain silent, sending kids off to another kind of war that has its own PTSD.David Shorternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-23360808918933682852009-06-30T22:46:41.084-05:002009-06-30T22:46:41.084-05:00BEAT IT TR!BEAT IT TR!davidjhemmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15557657307865513144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-15536452914885803982009-06-30T11:00:44.140-05:002009-06-30T11:00:44.140-05:00Elvis was the King. He led a revolution in entert...Elvis was the King. He led a revolution in entertainment that made possible the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and, yes, Michael Jackson. He also, in my opinion had a sexual credibility that Jackson never had. And a great American "up from poverty" story. And, unlike Jackson, he wasn't hothoused into it by his family, but did it on his own (with some help from Col. Parker, to be sure) -- he followed his own star. I was there, and the difference in the music scene before and after Elvis was much greater than the difference before and after Michael.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-90273486314359432662009-06-30T09:51:06.995-05:002009-06-30T09:51:06.995-05:00Hmmm. I think child molester *is* a loaded phrase...Hmmm. I think child molester *is* a loaded phrase, associated with public homophobia and moral panic, and perhaps I should have chosen another one. That said, there are people who are sexual with children in ways that said children have not agreed to, or have been manipulated into agreeing to. Part of that manipulation can be enticement with lavish presents and special attention; another part is being told that what you are feeling is good when it feels bad. I think there is more public evidence that points to that, including things MJ said about himself, than not.<br /><br /> On the other hand, what makes MJ immune from a category we might use for any other adult who invited children to his house to sleep in his bed? <br />I am not persuaded that the children who were intimate with Michael Jackson agreed to it, or that they were not harmed. Children are frequently not believed in court, much less by other adults close to them when they report these things -- much more so than the sensational cases where psychologists and recovered memory experts get involved might lead you to think. <br /><br />And my point about a queer theorist -- or let's just say it, a member of NAMBLA -- is honesty, from my point of view. I think it is one thing to practice intimate relations that are anathema to bourgeois culture, believe in it for ethical reasons that you clearly state and be honest about it. It is another thing to lie and take advantage of wealth and power (even to the extent that you know you can pay grasping parents off) -- or worse, to not be fully conscious that what you are doing might hurt someone else even when you don't intend it. <br /><br />As to payoffs making the charges themselves suspect: well, the Catholic and Episcopalian churches have been paying off adults who were molested as children for years, and that doesn't make the public think those priests were innocent.<br /><br />But I don;t want to get sidetracked on the specific sexual content here even though, as I admit, using the word "child molester" does raise the stakes. My point is that MJ was dark and twisty inside in all kinds of ways -- and probably because of how *he* was treated -- and that is what I saw in him.Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-36143927340220463542009-06-30T08:07:06.930-05:002009-06-30T08:07:06.930-05:00I agree with Steven regarding the "child mole...I agree with Steven regarding the "child molester" comment. What about due process? Also, it was clear to me that the parents who filed charges were motivated more by greed than by a desire to protect their son.Knitting Cliohttp://hmprescott.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-18012924451585587002009-06-30T06:42:56.484-05:002009-06-30T06:42:56.484-05:00I have to inject something of a sour note in the p...I have to inject something of a sour note in the praise for this post. Regarding MJ's thoughts on and relations with children, TR suggests that had MJ been a queer theorist or a member of NAMBLA, TR would have found MJ "interesting" and perhaps even "radical." But unable to claim theoretical or political credentials, MJ is for TR nothing more than a "child molester." Setting aside the dubious distinctions implicit here between theory/politics over pop culture (or even practice: MJ told the world he thought it was okay to have intimate relations with children; he didn't just write about it in GLQ), in my view our TR is dangerously close to restaging rather than challenging dominant discourses about "the child molester." I'm no real fan of MJ, and lots of evidence suggests he was a pretty sketchy parent, but to conflate that with child molestation by wrapping it up, as TR does, in the language of "enticement," "invitation," and "teenaged boys" is something I'd except to read -- and we will -- on the blogs of those who love to peddle in the politics of panic and pedophilia.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-21429579763532913502009-06-29T17:28:28.615-05:002009-06-29T17:28:28.615-05:00i agree with both clarissa and susan, by the far t...i agree with both clarissa and susan, by the far the best post/article/item written on the subject of MJ's death. at first i was shocked and sad and even a little into the hype and frenzy of what happened, but now, honestly, i'm already sick of the tributes and coverage. there are other very real important things happening.<br /><br />i feel horrible for his children. i wish the best for them. <br /><br />that being said, i confess, i was in absolute hysterics when john ritter died. i still can't say his name without tearing up, and it was nearly three years later after his death before i could watch an episode (even re-runs) of 8 Simple Rules without crying--even the ones without him in it. i burst into tears in class at the mention of his name shortly thereafter. i can't explain it. it's weird how we attach ourselves to or come to identify with people we've never met, whose lives are so far from our own. i was also unexplicably devastated when jennifer anniston and brad pitt broke up. i'm smarter than that. i have a ph.d. for crying out loud! why should i care about these things? but i do, for whatever reason.<br /><br />at least though, as far as i know, john ritter was never accused of pedophilia. <br /><br />may they both rest in peace.<br /><br />billy mays' death (of pitchmen on the discovery channel and of oxy clean fame) also made me really sad as well.Maudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918488082176862598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-71239530403217721962009-06-29T15:33:18.702-05:002009-06-29T15:33:18.702-05:00Great post. I'm still trying to figure out ho...Great post. I'm still trying to figure out how the death of a man who had'nt performed in public for years, or released new material, affects people so much. However, I've seen stuff from Lisa Marie Presley that was essentially "we all saw this coming, and kept trying to intervene". There was also really interesting stuff about why she divorced him. (this is the UK newspapers) My reading of this is that she indeed saw the links to her father, and her marriage was in a way an attempt to fix for MJ the stuff that had ruined her father.<br /><br />What astounds me is that MJs father -- who abused him -- is all over the press saying "There is foul play", and no one says "Of course this is the man who abused his son and turned him into a commodity."<br /><br />But it's very sad.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-615784559292533322009-06-29T15:02:23.289-05:002009-06-29T15:02:23.289-05:00Great post! Among everything that appeared recentl...Great post! Among everything that appeared recently on Michael Jackson, your article is definitely the best.Clarissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11027134365260069910noreply@blogger.com