tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post3218968705168834177..comments2024-03-09T03:20:20.004-05:00Comments on Tenured Radical: Why Do We Support the Troops? A Meditation and a Challenge to Those Who Are Against the Iraq WarTenured Radicalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-92221651603024876892009-04-25T16:26:00.000-05:002009-04-25T16:26:00.000-05:00There are those on the right who condider today's ...There are those on the right who condider today's troops 'mercenaries' who join not out of real American patriotism, but to prostitute their service in exchange for lavish pay and benefits and a 'free' education.<br /><br />Then there are those on the left who consider ALL of today's troops 'war criminals.'<br /><br />It is amazing how truly clueless Americans of today are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-34448454744507387772008-02-12T22:59:00.000-05:002008-02-12T22:59:00.000-05:00Seriously, that was very funny. Whenever I'm haunt...Seriously, that was very funny. Whenever I'm haunted by those events in the future I will think of your question and I will laugh and the gloom will be dispelled a little.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-13319751101894386612008-02-12T22:48:00.000-05:002008-02-12T22:48:00.000-05:00That was very funny.That was very funny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-71441742275030619092008-02-12T22:07:00.000-05:002008-02-12T22:07:00.000-05:00Do you live in New Jersey?Do you live in New Jersey?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-71446113829718641902008-02-12T21:40:00.000-05:002008-02-12T21:40:00.000-05:00Where I live, one day,some freedom fighters dresse...Where I live, one day,some freedom fighters dressed in fake police uniforms. They drove down the main street to the Oil and Petroleum Building and shot up the people entering the building. Then they grabbed a 55 year old man-a geological engineer who happened to run the local offices of the British oil company and earns about $200,000 a year-tied his body to the back of their jeep, dragged him through the town and then threw him off a bridge.<BR/>Next stop was a compound of houses<BR/>where "infidels" live which they were unable to enter because the gates were locked so they shot up and set fire to a school bus across the street.The bus caught on fire and many children of different faiths and nationalities died. An Egyptian woman listened to her only child screaming as he burned to death. Chased by the real police<BR/>they hit another unlocked compound<BR/>and murdered the gatemen.They began running around a residential compound with automatic weapons shooting anyone they saw and going house to house shouting "bring out the infidels" who were murdered if found.They didn't shoot foreign muslims. They then ran into a large apartment building on the premises , took all the foreign workers hostage and wired the building threatening to kill everyone and blow up the adjacant hospital.The Indian chef and laborers were hogtied for nine hours of a stand-off with the police and tried to escape so their<BR/>throats were cut ,they were beheaded ,and their heads were placed on the iron fence posts around the houses.This is because they were Hindu and defiled the land.Then these guys escaped.<BR/>I guess you think that US bombs are worse and this is nothing in comparison or they were just trying to make themselves heard-I don't know.But it made me think again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-59145551471363107862008-02-12T19:56:00.000-05:002008-02-12T19:56:00.000-05:00I can see that you are fishing for rationalization...I can see that you are fishing for rationalizations for actions you wish to take. <BR/><BR/>[STEP 1] Let's stop military recruiting in our area. <BR/><BR/>[STEP 2] Let's think up a reason to stop military recruiting in our area. <BR/><BR/>Seems to me that "thought" usually precedes "action," and that if it is so onerous to think of a justification, the acts are unworthy. <BR/><BR/>There have been examples stated above, but how is it "supporting the troops" to deny them reinforcements of volunteer soldiers? We have seen a rough correlation between the number of troops and the amount of violence in the region. <BR/><BR/>How is it "supporting the troops" to make them stay longer in Iraq or endure additional tours of duty because of the lack of new volunteer recruits? It appears to me that the actions you suggest are only supporting a particular worldview.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42051445544506409122008-02-12T16:42:00.000-05:002008-02-12T16:42:00.000-05:00what are we as occupiers, Alan? spreading democra...what are we as occupiers, Alan? spreading democracy throughout the world? bombing Iraqui civilians? and who exactly is the "Iraqui government"--who is in charge over there do you think?<BR/><BR/>i think your language of "shame" on you and "high-mindedness" seriously undermines discussion of a complex situation. if you can't critique the US occupation of Iraq, if you can't recognize the level of destruction we've brought in the name (and name only) of democracy for the benefit of, hmm, let's see, oh yeah, "us" (meaning oil executives and their companies), then maybe you should pull yourself out of your nationalist position and look through another lens.<BR/><BR/>i also think if you start trotting out a laundry list of deplorable things iraqui resistance resorts to in order to be heard, you should look also at US military and political strategy. we've got some pretty dirty laundry. and your position smacks of Hawk.gwoertendykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00542058287462910446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-3170472655940444492008-02-12T16:05:00.000-05:002008-02-12T16:05:00.000-05:00Do you really think all the people dying over ther...<I>Do you really think all the people dying over there at the hands of the US army are terrorists? The whole thing is a mess</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think that any faction in Iraq can claim to have clean hands, but I do think it's commonsensical to see that some factions (e.g. the Iraqi government in Baghdad), however imperfect (to put it mildly), are vastly preferable victors in this struggle than others. Throwing up your hands and saying 'it's such a big mess!' isn't an argument, it's a cop-out (and romanticizing the 'resistance' is worse than that: it's grotesque). The 'it's a mess' argument is the same BS excuse that Clinton used in the 1990s to excuse his lack of involvement in the Bosnian Wars, when it was plain that one side was more deserving of sympathy and support than the other. It may be clever-clever to argue about language here, but if you're so obsessed with your high-mindedness that you can't see that many of the people the US is fighting in Iraq are wicked and dangerous - well, I pity you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-68864638888818799752008-02-12T15:25:00.000-05:002008-02-12T15:25:00.000-05:00The fighting in Iraq has much much deeper roots th...The fighting in Iraq has much much deeper roots than European Colonialism which showed up long after battle lines had been drawn. Oil revenues have funded a violent replay of these original arguments and struggles in addition to a reactionary response to the inevitable encroachment of the modern world which challenges old beliefs and power structures- for example ,what we would call a priest class in Christianity.<BR/>I'm sorry, I had to make lunch for some children and I lost my train of thought but I'm posting this anyway.Like Mother's bridge where anyone gets to get up at anytime to change a diaper, stop a fight, drive a kid somewhere, fight with a husband or whatever and no questions asked.<BR/>signing off have funAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42954983730033427332008-02-12T14:27:00.000-05:002008-02-12T14:27:00.000-05:00Expat:I don't disagree with you -- although becaus...Expat:<BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with you -- although because what is wrong with Iraq is itself so much a part of several centuries of colonialism in the region, fixing it by imposing a solution that serves US interests seems wrong from the get-go. My memory is that you *are* living in the region -- I invite you to expand on your perspective as a guest blogger if you like. You have my email -- let me know.<BR/><BR/>And Alan -- I dunno, maybe we are both doing it -- but do you really think all the people dying over there at the hands of the US army are terrorists? The whole thing is a mess -- but no, I do not doubt that some people who are opposing the US occupation are doing so on grounds that many of us in the United States might find legibly ethical. Were the French Resistance, the Minutemen and the ANC *only* terrorists?<BR/><BR/>John -- I think you are doing a great job all on your own.<BR/><BR/>best,<BR/><BR/>TRTenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-56307783981895732492008-02-12T13:41:00.000-05:002008-02-12T13:41:00.000-05:00"We will not die so that the world will think well...<I>"We will not die so that the world will think well of us."</I><BR/><BR/><B>Golda Meir</B>Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-70240496630124738522008-02-12T13:13:00.000-05:002008-02-12T13:13:00.000-05:00My original objection to the use of the words free...My original objection to the use of the words freedom fighters was very specific. Obviously, many people who murder others do so from a sense of ethics or religious or political beliefs or whatever motivates human beings. What I was pointing out is that in this case freedom is not one of those values-an objection to personal freedom is basic to their <BR/>belief structure . These fighters are about revenge, power, money,<BR/>purity,racist beliefs, sectarian religious struggles job control <BR/>resentment jealousy God children women sex battles that were lost 1200 years ago your brother decadence and a host of other things-but they are not fighting for freedom. But then there's the old pickle-is someone a freedom fighter if they are fighting to impose tyranny?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-8227502432504307902008-02-12T12:15:00.000-05:002008-02-12T12:15:00.000-05:00Such little masters of war on this page!No one on ...Such little <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWkWSLEW-Ds" REL="nofollow">masters of war</A> on this page!<BR/><BR/>No one on the far left or the far right will ever win this argument.<BR/><BR/>However, both sides enjoy planting their sizable posteriors atop the fertile fields of this country cultivated by the blood of those who sacrificed everything.....<BR/><BR/>.......so those who "detest war" may even have the freedom to debate the issue.Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-75577481375035141982008-02-12T10:29:00.000-05:002008-02-12T10:29:00.000-05:00Cantdance, you are almost undoubtedly right that w...Cantdance, you are almost undoubtedly right that we have stirred up shit we can’t fix in Iraq and that it will come back to haunt us. I share your concern with fixing ongoing problems, and as to whether we should try, I’d say yes. There is a long discussion to be had about how, and I won’t insult your intelligence by acting like I have all the answers and can lay them out in a blog comment. But one proposal I find compelling is granting U.S. asylum en masse to Iraqi refugees fleeing the strife in their country that the occupation has stirred up. If we feel responsible and want to help those driven to desperation and ruin by our foreign policy, why not allow them refuge here, rather than effectively telling them to suck it up, and try not to worry, because our troops are staying. I’d also argue we owe significant reparations for the damage we’ve done to Iraq. How and when they should be paid I’m not sure, but I would caution that it’s imperative to avoid handing out suitcases of money to the politicians we find accommodating, in the time-honored CIA-style.<BR/><BR/>However, that entire discussion only takes place after we have recognized that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a mistake is a failure. Let’s not confuse the responsibility we feel to solve problems we’ve caused with an a priori belief that we have the ability to solve those problems. This war was conceived and sold by ideologues who thought they could perfect the world, and I believe that a reluctance to admit that we cannot remake the world in accordance to our will is part of what sustains support for the military strategy. Iraq has become a terrorist beehive comparable only to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation of the 80s (where the CIA-funded Osama bin Laden got his start). So it seems very likely that, as you say, we have stirred up shit we can’t fix. But perhaps with imagination, courage, and humility we can find ways to mitigate the blowback. Prior to that effort we must stop pretending that we can make friends at the barrel of a gun.<BR/><BR/>I was hoping to get more of a response to the problem I posed about how to frame the withdrawal argument more convincingly. I know there are lots of smart, experienced, left-leaning folks who hang out on this blog. Can anyone help?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-17990843905369830122008-02-12T09:20:00.000-05:002008-02-12T09:20:00.000-05:00But for all the commenters who find it impossible ...<I>But for all the commenters who find it impossible to imagine that there are ethical and moral differences among Iraqis ...</I><BR/><BR/>Ahem ... if anyone is eliding the ethical and moral differences in Iraq, it's yourself. So the 'resistance' deliberately murder a few children and handicapped people? Hey dude, war sucks. People are bad. But don't get all <I>judgmental</I> about it. After all, one person's freedom fighter ... (and insert other placeholders for thought here).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-5333918421641783022008-02-12T07:51:00.000-05:002008-02-12T07:51:00.000-05:00Dear alan & all who are horrified by my use of the...Dear alan & all who are horrified by my use of the term "freedom fighters": War sucks. People are bad. But for all the commenters who find it impossible to imagine that there are ethical and moral differences among Iraqis, or that there is any legitimate reason why Iraqis want an American occupational force out of their country, you need to rethink this notion and the American colonial mentality it comes from. Who, and what, gave the United States a monopoly on the idea of freedom?<BR/><BR/>TRTenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-36449754895199877412008-02-12T07:06:00.000-05:002008-02-12T07:06:00.000-05:00one person's freedom fighter is another person's t...<I>one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist</I><BR/><BR/>The Sunni insurgents in Iraq, amongst other charming tactics, recently began <A HREF="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22945797/" REL="nofollow">using mentally handicapped victims as suicide bombers.</A> If this desiccated who-am-I-to-judge? line is more than an affectation, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-49719248744564968492008-02-12T01:22:00.000-05:002008-02-12T01:22:00.000-05:00I found this article in the New York Times, about ...I found <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/us/12berkeley.html" REL="nofollow">this article</A> in the <I>New York Times</I>, about Berkeley's backtracking on opposing military recruitment in the city, to be particularly relevant to your post.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17873428526030335918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-25310562752909488732008-02-11T22:53:00.000-05:002008-02-11T22:53:00.000-05:00The characterization of the main violent players i...The characterization of the main violent players in Iraq as "freedom fighters" speaks to me of cultural projection. It seems to me that in most cases freedom is not the issue but rather power , dominance and control - who will make who obey whom and who will get the money to enforce his will through oil revenues. Please don't anyone respond that that is just what the US is doing....just please don't call them freedom fighters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-1373599939623380372008-02-11T22:06:00.000-05:002008-02-11T22:06:00.000-05:00oops, meant to say "is there anything we should do...oops, meant to say "is there anything we should do." And then is there anything we can do.cantdancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11212392413809175673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-57558313774794415462008-02-11T18:10:00.000-05:002008-02-11T18:10:00.000-05:00for john, and TR:I DON'T think more war will fix t...for john, and TR:<BR/>I DON'T think more war will fix the problems we have caused in Iraq. Given that, what do you think the US should do? Just pull out and that's the end of it? Or do you think there is anything we can do to work towards fixing ongoing problems there, including those we've created? Also, is there anything we can do? I am often overwhelmed by the belief that we have stirred up sh**t we can't fix, that is bound to come back and make life worse for us, Iraq and other nations long into the future.cantdancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11212392413809175673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-61779193412132032002008-02-11T12:27:00.000-05:002008-02-11T12:27:00.000-05:00Here's one military policy worth opposing: the Bus...Here's <A HREF="http://insidehighered.com/news/2008/02/11/qt" REL="nofollow">one military policy worth opposing</A>: the Bush administration wants to <I>reduce</I> GI-Bill educational benefits because good retirement benefits might reduce reenlistment rates. I think we can all get behind a push to weaken reenlistment rates by promoting higher education for veterans!Ahistoricalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004964192885891003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-38798335930709376812008-02-11T11:10:00.000-05:002008-02-11T11:10:00.000-05:00Let's see, if we give money to the "Iraqi freedom ...Let's see, if we give money to the "Iraqi freedom fighters" is that "opposition" or "treason"? <BR/><BR/>If we support the cause of the "Iraqi freedom fighters" by posting our support on the web is that "opposition" or "treason"? <BR/><BR/>If we put sugar in the gas tanks of the jeeps and Humvees is that "opposition" or "treason"? <BR/><BR/>If we do everything we can to ensure that the Army, in a time of war (with no draft), does not get soldiers is that "opposition" or "treason"? <BR/><BR/>Fine line there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-62480911686734644282008-02-10T21:50:00.000-05:002008-02-10T21:50:00.000-05:00I have a fond memory of a visit by military recrui...I have a fond memory of a visit by military recruiters to Zenith while I was a student there. At the time Queer Alliance maintained a roster of drag queens (or at least drag queens for-the-day) who could be called into a action at a moment's notice. The call was made, and the recruiters spent the whole day surrounded by a circle of drag queens, fending off mock advances.PMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14859373169517442483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-44039399812002424962008-02-10T19:00:00.000-05:002008-02-10T19:00:00.000-05:00Wow. Nice work John. TRWow. Nice work John. <BR/><BR/>TRTenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.com