tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post7502613821108234275..comments2024-03-09T03:20:20.004-05:00Comments on Tenured Radical: Never Mix, Never Worry: A Brief (And Incomplete) History Of The Academic CoupleTenured Radicalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-33548697873215105962010-09-03T18:43:22.145-05:002010-09-03T18:43:22.145-05:00catching up on blog reading after thunderstorm ind...catching up on blog reading after thunderstorm induced haitus. This is brilliant. Great points. Especially about meritocracy (which many seem to be sidestepping).<br /><br />This: "the bad job market is not a natural phenomenon. It is not going to magically correct itself when the economy improves. The bad job market has been entirely manufactured by colleges, universities and state legislatures who are unwilling to create the number of full-time positions that they need to teach the students they have."<br /><br />Needs to be put in the comments of every single article on the job market published in the CoHE and IHE.<br /><br />And faculty associations/unions/whoever need to start seeing adjunct pay as their concern. I actively discourage PhDs from doing sessional teaching unless there is a very clear benefit (other than paying the rent, which they could do slinging lattes).JoVEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16680602039278597976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-25557492771244087762010-08-19T06:28:12.107-05:002010-08-19T06:28:12.107-05:00*blush**blush*Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-59147721930431386462010-08-18T20:23:54.359-05:002010-08-18T20:23:54.359-05:00Thanks, TR, for your sage advice. I am going to t...Thanks, TR, for your sage advice. I am going to try to seek you out at the 2011 Berks (assuming you will be there) and tell you in person how much I enjoy your wisdom and wit. I've been following Tenured Radical almost since its inception and I hope it will go on for a very long time. I would write more about all the reasons I admire you but I have to go read a post about academic advising, as I do that and feel I could benefit from your insights.hopeful WGS/History lecturernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-26354621549249048492010-08-18T08:11:06.909-05:002010-08-18T08:11:06.909-05:00It's not entirely crazy -- in fact, here at Ze...It's not entirely crazy -- in fact, here at Zenith, my particular crowd does what we can to draw on well-qualified partners for replacement courses - although I can only recall once hiring a trailing sppuse as a full-timer.<br /><br />My advice? Cut your deals coming in, whenever you can -- and rather than departments, which are fussbudgety about independence, look to the chronically understaffed programs for help with this.Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-60060807227458137782010-08-17T16:04:18.507-05:002010-08-17T16:04:18.507-05:00Oh this is all so very disheartening! If anyone ...Oh this is all so very disheartening! If anyone is still following this thread, I have a question for which I'd be very grateful for your insight(s): Is it any more likely that a partner of someone being recruited for a tenured or tt position, especially if that partner happens to be in a teaching-centered discipline with a great deal of teaching experience under h/ir belt, might be able to negotiate a lectureship rather than a tt or an adjunct position? Am I totally naive to believe that if a stable position with respectable pay (not great, but not insultingly low adjunct pay/status) were on the table it could be seen as mutually beneficial to all? I mean, what humanities dept. isn't constantly trying to find people to teach intro level and survey courses? Couldn't a case be made to the powers that be that money would be saved in the long run with a qualified lecturer, and (not that everyone cares about this) the quality of teaching would perhaps be vastly improved to boot? Moreover, what if more than one program or department could fund the lectureship if the applicant/partner-of-tenured person crossed disciplinary lines with h/ir work and teaching? Wouldn't that be a position of strength in which to find oneself? <br /><br />Please tell me this little scenario isn't crazy as this will be my situation in the academic year following this upcoming one and I really need to believe my choices won't be to either return to adjuncting (after years of holding a lectureship at an elite insitution) or give up on teaching altogether because it's all just become way too infuriating to endure! (Never wanted a tt job so that's a non -issue.)hopeful WGS/History lecturernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-63706828291013804592010-08-17T14:57:31.575-05:002010-08-17T14:57:31.575-05:00It is a successful conclusion from the point of Bi...It is a successful conclusion from the point of Bick’s relationship with her husband. The husband’s first career ended and he had to reinvent him. As I know from personal experience this can be very difficult. If the woman had to give up her chosen academic career but got to live in the same city with her husband and children would it still be a successful conclusion?<br /><br />Was feminism really as straight forward and simple as women making a conscious choice to stop baking cookies and get PhDs? I guess there were not any social forces that kept them baking and no changes that enabled woman to have more options, in both career and personal life.<br /><br />College campuses across America have scholarship funds for women returning to school, loans for students, funds for campus beautification and wings in medical centers because of faculty wives. Apparently, these women found time to do other things besides baking cookies and becoming alcoholics.<br /><br />I have a longer version of this comment on my blog amymittelman.com/musingsAmyhttp://amymittelman.com/musingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-70471279472891131952010-08-17T14:50:42.817-05:002010-08-17T14:50:42.817-05:00This is a wonderful post, TR. Your point, and Hist...This is a wonderful post, TR. Your point, and Historiann's, about the market not being purely meritocratic, are right on the money.<br /><br />The question "Who deserves the job?" overlooks the basic fact: there are always a number of candidates who deserve the job. Most of the people who get rejected <i>deserve</i> a job. But there's only one salary for all of those deserving people. You can deserve a job and not get even a preliminary interview.<br /><br />Every job search makes a preferential selection from among the (pretty large) number of qualified and richly deserving candidates. As TR says, many<br /><br />(It's funny because this is exactly how elite college admissions work ... choosing the students the school likes best from a much larger pool of candidates who would do well at the school. Many academics, who were chosen through exactly this process for their undergraduate schools, seemingly refuse to grasp how it works.)<br /><br />The idea that spousal hires/affirmative action hires/opportunity hires somehow cheat "the deserving candidate" presumes that a single candidate is <i>the</i> deserving candidate, as if there were some magically clear and indisputable list, with the deserving arranged in a transcendentally lucid order. Complaints about "fairness" are often complaints about people being hired instead of people who are imagined as higher on the imaginary list ... but no such list exists. There is not <b>a</b> most qualified person. There are a number of exceptionally qualified people, almost all of whom would turn out to be fabulous colleagues.Doctor Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326408523926507003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-91602567043487916792010-08-17T13:47:38.220-05:002010-08-17T13:47:38.220-05:00Anonymous said...
"I guess I'm lucky in ...Anonymous said...<br /><br />"I guess I'm lucky in that my spouse is an academic professional (i.e. non-faculty) and was still wrapping up a graduate degree when I was hired. After two years a position opened up and now we both work together at the same small liberal arts college."<br /><br />Lucky indeed. Or more likely, either officially or unofficially, your position helped your partner land the job and it has worked toward better retention for you both. So it seems self-serving to state that it just so happened to work out for you, but you wouldn't want to help out anyone else unless s/he fit your very narrow criteria of what is "best" for your department.<br /><br />Also, as far as the question of a good fit goes more generally, spousal hires can be excellent along these lines since often people know the institution fairly well through their spouse or as an adjunct prior to application. Everyone knows what they are getting into, as it were, as opposed to trying to determine whether or not someone who seems good in an interview really will thrive in the culture or not. <br /><br />Not to mention, the ongoing stress and resentment that can occur in a once congenial department after a spouse has been rejected should not be taken lightly. Unless we want to continue fostering an environment of bitter, lonely academics we need to start realizing that the person need not be the "best of the best" to make for the best situation for all involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-37184394795708289832010-08-17T13:45:33.228-05:002010-08-17T13:45:33.228-05:00When I was at my second interview for a community ...When I was at my second interview for a community college position, holding my PhD, they asked me why I wanted the job. They wanted to be reassured that I didn't intend to jump ship to a research institution at the first opportunity.<br /><br />I told them I liked teaching, I also told them my husband worked in the next county. It answered the question on all levels.CC profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42001293806830879462010-08-17T13:28:52.366-05:002010-08-17T13:28:52.366-05:00"I work at a very SLAC (300 students) and sta..."I work at a very SLAC (300 students) and stability of professors is worked for and valued, leading to multiple couples in our group (three married couples, so six out of around 40 tenured faculty - fairly high percentage). This makes a number of them much more dedicated to the university than they might be otherwise."<br /><br />I hope your SLAC doesn't advertise any of its departments' specialties to their students. Imagine hoping to major with a specialty your school and department have actively offered for years...<br /><br />...only to have that option vanish your sophomore or junior year when the professor of that specialty retires and the school replaces her or him according to who's sleeping with* some other department's potential new hires instead of according to the applicants they get who can teach that specialty.<br /><br />For example, suppose you're a linguistics major at a SLAC hoping to focus your senior-year studies on the sign languages option your school has advertised since even before you chose a college and major, and then the ASL linguistics professor emerita gets replaced with a non-signing Romance-languages-specializing linguist because he's the guy the new molecular biology professor sleeps with.*<br /><br />If the Academy is going to continue its spousal-hire custom then students with interests more specific than "eh, whatever the [insert name of subject] department happens to have this year" would be better off choosing larger schools with more faculty per department and avoiding SLACs.<br /><br />"...I don't understand the fear of trying to work towards family friendliness in the Academy."<br /><br />How family friendly is giving a job applicant less of a chance because she's a single mother instead of married to an applicant for some other job?<br /><br /><br /><br />* and to anyone who retorts with "but lots of sexual relationships aren't marriages!" or "but there's more to marriage than sex!" yes those are both true but they do *not* mean that (a) marriage has nothing to do with sex and (b) a marriage wasn't most probably a sexual relationship at some pointAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-41863133712662374142010-08-16T20:50:44.667-05:002010-08-16T20:50:44.667-05:00However the world works at the moment, it does see...However the world works at the moment, it does seem like universities might better acknowledge or work for the advantages of sometimes hiring couples. I work at a very SLAC (300 students) and stability of professors is worked for and valued, leading to multiple couples in our group (three married couples, so six out of around 40 tenured faculty - fairly high percentage). This makes a number of them much more dedicated to the university than they might be otherwise.<br />As an undergrad, my philosophy department actually hired two continental philosophers (seriously...that is exactly their department and field) into a 1.5 tenure track position not unlike TR mentioned for Franklin and Marchall. Again, this seems to be of great potential benefit to the university and I have not seen such hires where one is underqualified - I don't understand the fear of trying to work towards family friendliness in the Academy.<br /><br />My two cents.Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-6164229489888747422010-08-16T15:58:01.567-05:002010-08-16T15:58:01.567-05:00I guess I'm lucky in that my spouse is an acad...I guess I'm lucky in that my spouse is an academic professional (i.e. non-faculty) and was still wrapping up a graduate degree when I was hired. After two years a position opened up and now we both work together at the same small liberal arts college.<br /><br />That said, as a tenured department chair I have to agree with those who would panic at the idea of a "following" hire. I would never take someone in my department simply because some other department had hired her/his partner, nor would I expect the same of anyone else. While a full national search does not insure "the best" in any meaningful way, it has a much greater chance of finding the best <i>fit</i> for the department. In a small school like mine a department has no wiggle room in fields or specialties; we'd have to dramatically change our major if we were to hire someone outside the fields we target for a new position. <br /><br />Young academic couples-- to which I am very sympathetic --need to realize they are very unlikely to find jobs in the same zip code. If they are in the same field (both philosophers, say, or worse, both <i>continental</i> philosophers) the chances are close to zero. They'd have better odds finding another partner-- or finding one willing to train/retrain for some field outside academia.<br /><br />That doesn't make it right but that's the way the world works now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42335855736976170352010-08-16T15:08:32.688-05:002010-08-16T15:08:32.688-05:00@Anon 2:08 -
I see what you're saying. I don&...@Anon 2:08 -<br />I see what you're saying. I don't really, though, see the point of debating Bicks' or her husband's cv. Whatever their cv's look like, the larger point of the article still holds, no?Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-80024218381106069332010-08-16T14:08:05.318-05:002010-08-16T14:08:05.318-05:00"those posting don't seem to understand t..."those posting don't seem to understand that the research expectations in both English and in Classics are VERY different from in political science."<br /><br />I don't know about that. I just finished a 3-year term on our university wide faculty T&P board here at my unranked regional LAC. I saw the review files for 4 junior English faculty, and 3 had records better than Bicks -- that is, they had university press books and multiple articles in good journals. What they didn't have that Bick's does is Harvard/Stanford pedigree. Moreover, I served on the search we did for a classics position a few years ago, and we had 20+ applicants with books in print from good presses. So the assessment that her and her husband's work is perhaps a bit underwhelming is not unwarranted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42796822738617918292010-08-16T13:56:53.085-05:002010-08-16T13:56:53.085-05:00Right on to what Dr. Crazy said. No one on a &quo...Right on to what Dr. Crazy said. No one on a "rumor board" knows what the tenure and promotion standards are where Bicks and her spouse teach, so they should STFU.<br /><br />Besides, what is this, Lake Woebegone? We only deserve to have both a marriage and a job if we're all "above average?" <br /><br />I h8 the internets.Historiannhttp://historiann.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-81067176675929442452010-08-16T13:43:26.838-05:002010-08-16T13:43:26.838-05:00The thing about the poli-sci rumor board, though, ...The thing about the poli-sci rumor board, though, is that those posting don't seem to understand that the research expectations in both English and in Classics are VERY different from in political science. So all of the venom being spewed seems to have very little to do with the actual essay or the actual merits of either Bicks or her husband.Dr. Crazyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12457967076373916629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-35700105982396239532010-08-16T12:48:35.561-05:002010-08-16T12:48:35.561-05:00Bicks is getting slammed at the Political Science ...Bicks is getting slammed at the Political Science rumor board, and mostly not for anti-feminist reasons. After a quick search determined this couple were NY Times wedding announcement sorts and she's a Harvard-Stanford daughter of the upper-classes, who has not been terribly productive, well, the merit-deluded posters have gotten pretty angry. A representative post:<br /><br />"These whiny losers came from all that pedigree and privilege, parlayed it into 2 TT jobs, and managed to get 1 book written between the two of them? They had less written output than they had children. He deserved his fate and she should be retroactively denied tenure."<br /><br />A bit harsh, but there is some truth there.<br />http://www.poliscijobrumors.com/topic.php?id=25413Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-88986802536385273272010-08-16T09:50:37.052-05:002010-08-16T09:50:37.052-05:00Sorry I just wanted to clear something up...
It&#...Sorry I just wanted to clear something up...<br /><br /><b>It's not illegal to ask about a candidate's marital status</b>. It's only illegal to make a hiring decision based on that. So a lot of things candidates are asked are not really "illegal" but of course HR departments suggest you never ASK those questions, because if you know the answer it's too easy to make a decision from that knowledge, and too easy for someone to sue you for making a decision off that (not that there's a lot of sueing in academia). Just wanted to clarify since a lot of people kept talking about that. Otherwise, great points TR, and agree with the commenter that said you need to be president of EVERY university!FrauTechhttp://frautech.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-5881960882450638442010-08-16T09:43:46.854-05:002010-08-16T09:43:46.854-05:00THere you go, putting everyone's nose in reali...THere you go, putting everyone's nose in reality again. You are incorrigible! Congrats on the New York Times piece!Dorothy Potter Snyderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437027506822572629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-10134465095879058382010-08-16T09:30:10.827-05:002010-08-16T09:30:10.827-05:00"The bad job market has been entirely manufac..."The bad job market has been entirely manufactured by colleges, universities and state legislatures who are unwilling to create the number of full-time positions that they need to teach the students they have. Until there is some kind of effective social movement of students and faculty to correct this, Boards of Trustees and administrations will continue to shrink faculties, particularly in the liberal arts."<br /><br />Amen.Ellienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-12467615530455063752010-08-16T09:00:30.855-05:002010-08-16T09:00:30.855-05:00GREAT post.
I was on the market ten or so years a...GREAT post.<br /><br />I was on the market ten or so years ago. ALWAYS asked about marital status. Husband was also on market in same field, never asked....<br /><br />We finally ended up with good jobs together, as result of spousal hire.<br /><br />Universities who are forward thinking enough to do spousal hires end up with two great people, both committed to the university, grateful for being given jobs together. Win win win.<br /><br />I feel for person married to the engineer. Never let the money be the only reason for why one works. When our kids were little it made NO monetary sense for us both to be working with childcare costs etc etc. But it was never about the money, it was about equality and doing what one loves. Our relationship stayed great, while so many others floundered when one spouse gave up their career. <br /><br />Difficult times I know. I feel for everyone on the market right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-19926249667749519372010-08-16T08:21:40.127-05:002010-08-16T08:21:40.127-05:00Ugh. So sad. All of this. Thanks for the remind...Ugh. So sad. All of this. Thanks for the reminder about who's responsible for the crisis in academic employment.<br /><br />The belief that academic hiring is a pure meritocracy should be shattered by the time one has seen a search from the inside. Strangely, some faculty continue to be addicted to this belief in spite of all the evidence. Given market conditions, departments are looking for (mostly specious) reasons to narrow the list of finalists. There is absolutely nothing meritoractic about this.<br /><br />That said, all of my friends who have academic partners found jobs close to each other eventually (if not in the same department.) But, like Bicks and her spouse, they spent several years living apart before finding jobs together.<br /><br />I think it's important to establish yourself somewhere and demonstrate a commitment to your career if you want to have future employment options elsewhere. It's always a crapshoot, but I think it's much less likely that you'll ever find a job for your spouse (or at your spouse's institution) if you don't take a job and get your colleagues invested in your career.Historiannhttp://historiann.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-44677996965072762782010-08-16T07:58:43.750-05:002010-08-16T07:58:43.750-05:00Like everyone else, my husband and I just went thr...Like everyone else, my husband and I just went through this. I am a biologist; he, a physicist. We both hold degrees from elite ivy's (not that that should matter), and both have sailed through our careers... until now. I got the TT faculty job of my dreams... literally, the one place I've always wanted to go. Yes, they asked if "he" would be an issue. I was straightforward and told them we would need a spousal hire given the geography of the school (but he's highly competitive - he had many TT offers of his own, he came with a ton of grant money in hand, and yes - even first-authored Nature papers - 2 of them). The department was psyched! They were THRILLED to get him as well as me (in fact, I went through a moment of insane and irrational jealousy where I actually worried that they only hired me in order to attract him, but I digress). In the end, my department needed to convince a more appropriate department (physics, math, or engineering) that they wanted my husband - which was easy. It came down to $ - the school (a state school) just didn't have the $ to hire us both. And since the school was geographically located in a place with no industry.... we turned it down. It was heartbreaking. <br /><br />My point is that even for faculty who "get it", there often isn't institutional support (money) to make it happen. And trust me, this department fought to the highest of levels, and my husband (though not interviewed by them initially), had everyone drooling with his CV. <br /><br />On the flipside, we both now have positions that we LOVE in another city. The economy sucks - no school could solve the two-body problem for us - so I now run an academically styled lab in a corporate non-profit institution (where I am constantly reminded by my academic colleagues that though I write grants, train grad students, and write papers.... I don't teach classes, and I'm not at a degree-granting institution... so I'm not technically academia). My hubby now runs a division of a major industry company and is the co-founder of a successful start-up. We were both bred by academia, but now neither of us are there. <br /><br />Success or failure? We're not academics, but we do academic-y things...in the same city...and we're happy. I say success! But you should know that one of my mentors still says failure because we're not traditional academics. But we're not academics because the Academy couldn't solve the two-body-problem for us. Sigh.the non-academic academicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-86385539300129808302010-08-16T06:00:59.185-05:002010-08-16T06:00:59.185-05:00Having solved the two body problem (not very well ...Having solved the two body problem (not very well but still) I read that piece in the NYT with some interest. <br /><br />At MFRU the spousal hires had all the status of lepers. Never mind that they were perfectly respectable scholars in their own right, the only way a spousal hire occurred was if the other half was a rock star. In the time I was there, not of the spousal appointments worked out (all divorces!). <br /><br />I also echo the annoyance at the "fake search" when a uni finally does pony up a job for some poor spouse who has been adjuncting for a decade. Heck give the person the job, by all means, but don't drag some poor fucks out there to pad the search to make it look legit. <br /><br />I find the trailing spouse situation far scarier as it is so much more common. In our circle of friends, sciDAD and I are the only double TT couple (excepting folks who met and married after coming to TT jobs). In all other cases save one, it is the wife who adjuncts while the hubby has the TT position.feMOMhisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192104351023271207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-45943611875855718982010-08-16T05:07:12.992-05:002010-08-16T05:07:12.992-05:00"Anonymous@3:23EST: where did you get this no..."Anonymous@3:23EST: where did you get this notion that ugly people can't get married?..."<br /><br />From *being* ugly instead of plain, and getting bullied for it.<br /><br />"...I know plenty of unattractive married people..."<br /><br />That's why I specified too-ugly-to-attract-and-keep-a-sex-partner. Obviously these people you mention aren't *that* ugly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com