tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post3202936681638312243..comments2024-03-09T03:20:20.004-05:00Comments on Tenured Radical: The Work That Euphemism Does: A Few Thoughts on the Recent History of AbortionTenured Radicalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-29638847083300698082009-06-15T12:15:18.921-05:002009-06-15T12:15:18.921-05:00I'm not pro-abortion any more than I am pro-di...I'm not pro-abortion any more than I am pro-divorce. They are both the best solution to an untenable situation. <br /><br />Shall we go back to the old statistics about countries where abortion was safe and legal vs. countries where it wasn't? Similar rates of abortion -- all that differed was the rates of deaths of women. And the suffering of their already-born children, deprived of their mothers.<br /><br />- Tenuous, so only quietly radicalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-56439816559803530042009-06-13T14:50:53.628-05:002009-06-13T14:50:53.628-05:00Wow - great post. I definitely gives me a lot to ...Wow - great post. I definitely gives me a lot to chew on. I have to agree with the comments from Moria, though. I think choice encompasses so much more than the right to have an abortion. But I do agree with what you said - abortion is a right. A woman has the right to control her own reproductive destiny - period.Serenahttp://feministsforchoice.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-79790645864291516222009-06-11T18:14:35.628-05:002009-06-11T18:14:35.628-05:00parezcoydego: "Its bullshit" What a stu...parezcoydego: "Its bullshit" What a stunning argument--if you're a third-grader on the playground. However, if you're an adult, I fear it leaves a little to be desired intellectually.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-65837057939316691602009-06-10T16:16:53.283-05:002009-06-10T16:16:53.283-05:00@jackdanielsblack - you saw the scare quotes aroun...@jackdanielsblack - you saw the scare quotes around "person" right? The invading marauder is more akin to a parasite-- because that's what an unwanted fetus is, an entity that feeds off of its host. <br /><br />Still, abortion is not killing a person. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.<br /><br />I am pro-abortion because it is my position that women will never be truly equal unless they have complete control over their own reproduction. Without that control, they are always potentially enslaved by their wombs. Of course the preferential method for stopping unwanted pregnancies is easy and affordable access to birth control. <br /><br />And this coming weekend there is a national protest with the slogan "The Pill Kills." The pro-fetus contingent in this nation doesn't want to just stop abortion (which they will never do, though they may succeed in making it very dangerous again)-- they want to enslave women to their wombs, or re-inscribe sex as something only done for procreation.<br /><br />Its bullshit, and its misogyny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-48312929555075525432009-06-10T14:52:08.540-05:002009-06-10T14:52:08.540-05:00two thoughts, related but not necessarily in respo...two thoughts, related but not necessarily in response to the thread. <br /><br />A wise pro-choice woman once pointed out that "There aren’t ‘women who have abortions’ and ‘women who have babies’. Those are the same women at different points in their lives." The data supports this point: over 60% of women seeking abortions already have children and many will go on to have more. <br /><br />When I say I'm pro-choice I don't feel it is a euphemism for pro-abortion. <br /><br />Like many have expressed here, I work for women's reproductive rights because I feel they are fundamental human rights. <br /><br />I see abortion as a medical procedure that many women choose-- Susan was almost right-- more than 1/3 of US women will have had an abortion by age 45. <br /><br />I work for abortion rights/access because there is a movement to eviscerate them. If any of the other pregnancy options (adoption, giving birth) were similarly under attack I would fight for those too, and consider myself to be fighting for choice and reproductive rights. but where I live abortion rights are what is in jeopardy.<br /><br />For context: I work for an organization that provides abortions and other women's health care. I am under 30.ECnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-10102646543631452182009-06-10T14:20:57.709-05:002009-06-10T14:20:57.709-05:00Sisyphus, I not only think we should have free day...Sisyphus, I not only think we should have free daycare, I think we should do as France used to do (and maybe still does) and pay folks to bring kids to term. Maybe increase the tax deduction for children as well. I'm all for making life as good as possible for mothers and their kids -- in fact, I think society owes it to them.<br /><br />Of course, now some grouch is going to come along and start talking about the need for population control -- as Kurt Vonnegut would say, so it goes.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-50058710978305126042009-06-10T14:10:42.062-05:002009-06-10T14:10:42.062-05:00perezcoydigo, looks like we have gone from "a...perezcoydigo, looks like we have gone from "abortion is not killing" to abortion is self-defense against an invading marauder. Looks to me like as your argument prgresses, the fetus is crawling (as it were) toward personhood! Perhaps we're making progress.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-91218855556915644422009-06-10T13:13:37.252-05:002009-06-10T13:13:37.252-05:00@jackdanielsblack - Nice try, but I have a son, an...@jackdanielsblack - Nice try, but I have a son, and my wife has miscarried- spontaneously aborted a wanted kiddo before. I've seen many sonograms-- even the nifty new 3d kind that show features I recognized after my son was born. <br /><br />A fetus is not an independent person. We could go the contract theory route (you know contract theory, right- the basis of modern republics) and there is still no way one can argue that the fetus trumps the woman's rights. The fetus is an invader, who steals resources from the woman's womb. On the basis of contract theory, a woman's body is her possession, and she has every right to decide whether or not the invading "person" is a welcomed guest. If not, she has every right of self-defense to prevent the fetus from acquiring her property without consent.<br /><br />I do believe a fetus is a potential person, of course, but potentialities do not accord, more-less supersede the rights of a flesh and blood living woman. <br /><br />And yet, not of that answers to the reality that your rhetorical culture of life/culture of death breeds intolerance and violence in what is a legal medical procedure. I find dignity and respect as life affirming. The people I see on the street corners at clinics in my hometown lack dignity and respect at every turn. <br /><br />So no, you won't change my mind with some sonogramsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-73929523153656402252009-06-10T12:15:27.382-05:002009-06-10T12:15:27.382-05:00I think we need to skew the rhetoric a bit and cal...I think we need to skew the rhetoric a bit and call it "Pro (fetal) Life" to remind ourselves and others that so many of the folks who oppose abortion do not support childcare, etc.timnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01985699859449138316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-91847577591975955772009-06-10T10:02:20.538-05:002009-06-10T10:02:20.538-05:00Sisyphus:
Right you are -- and I would say that f...Sisyphus:<br /><br />Right you are -- and I would say that family values conservatives might want to think about how many fetuses might be brought to term if they didn't insist that children be raised without any resources to care for them when their parents (or a single mom) is at work. Reducing abortions is not my issue, but affordable daycare might be one viable route to do that.<br /><br />The woman on the left is, I think, a humiliated socialite who has come veiled to get an abortion. Gail Bederman would know the answer to that question!Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-44839389448354758102009-06-10T09:52:33.851-05:002009-06-10T09:52:33.851-05:00Don't forget that the 70s-era feminist manifes...Don't forget that the 70s-era feminist manifestos calling for abortion on demand also insisted that free 24-hr public daycares be made available in the same sentence. <br /><br />TR, I love that old-timey picture! Who's the chick in the burqua off to the side?Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-651448194886613332009-06-10T08:35:20.821-05:002009-06-10T08:35:20.821-05:00It has long been a truism among the chattering cla...It has long been a truism among the chattering classes that the dynamic of the abortion wars in the US can be explained by the fact that abortion rights were established through the courts, and not through political process. I'm not entirely convinced by this argument (I shudder to think of what such a process might have produced), but I wonder if there is not a grain of truth in it.<br /><br />Instead of arguing the merits of abortion rights in a public forum, advocates have basically focused on preserving the legal status quo, by trying to make sure that there are at least 5 justices "more or less" of their side or who at the very least understand Roe v. Wade to be "established precedent." Basically, this is a *conservative*, based upon the premise that the termination of a pregnancy should be included among the time-honored rights according to all Americans. The problem is that: 1) a decent number of Americans have never perceived this right as legitimate; and 2) it means that the case for abortion rights is rarely argued on its merits, so much of the political vitality is on the other side of the debate.Knobbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-37505923373245023922009-06-10T08:12:23.170-05:002009-06-10T08:12:23.170-05:00Historiann, I understand and respect your point of...Historiann, I understand and respect your point of view, but I am haunted by the thought that we should judge our society based on how it treats its least powerful members. Is anyone less powerful than a "tiny, dependent" unborn baby. And speaking of "The work that euphemism does", I think that calling unborn babies "creatures" so that you don't have to feel guilty about doing away with them illustrates euphemism very well.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-86445816189805831212009-06-10T07:39:26.221-05:002009-06-10T07:39:26.221-05:00Jack, you're of course entitled to your views,...Jack, you're of course entitled to your views, and yes, abortion entails the killing of something. But in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, it's not a baby, and much of the time it's not even recognizeably a human fetus. <br /><br />I have seen ultrasound images--several of them, in fact, of a child who was and is very much wanted and very much loved. But, until the end of the first third of pregnancy, that "baby" looks a lot like a jellybean, and then maybe like a tadpole with a hugely disproportionate head. The idea that such a tiny, dependent creature who couldn't possibly survive outside the womb might have rights or interests that trump that of the womb owner is outrageous. The womb owner--even if she is a 14-year old girl, 20 year-old Susan, or 40 year old me--is a living, breathing citizen who is part of a community. She has people who depend on her--on her work, on her help, or just on her love and affection. Moreover, those girls and women have rights as citizens--and it's the erasure of women and girls and the worship of formless jellybeans and tadpoles that is profoundly offensive to me and to most feminists, whether they are mothers themselves or not. <br /><br />To us, it seems like the same old song: our society prefers to recognize the rights of just about anything before they will recognize women's rights and the fact that women are citizens, too--citizens whose persons are in fact covered by the 4th, 9th, and 13th amendments to the U.S. Constitution. You can think whatever you want about fetuses and babies--but so can everyone else here, and it's much, much, much better for all concerned that women's rights as citizens and as creatures capable of moral reasoning that they make their own decisions about whether they bear children or not.Historiannhttp://historiann.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-66837621915442686972009-06-10T07:14:41.118-05:002009-06-10T07:14:41.118-05:00parezcoydigo, if you don't think that a fetus ...parezcoydigo, if you don't think that a fetus is a person, I know from experience that there is nothing I could say that would change your mind. Perhaps if you'd look closely at a few sonograms of unborn "nonpeople" you would change your mind--but I doubt it.<br /><br />Abortion is not killing? I can see how you could believe that abortion is not murder, but I doubt that many folks would agree that abortion does not involve killing the fetus.JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-84759480645861381542009-06-10T05:06:05.331-05:002009-06-10T05:06:05.331-05:00Thank you, TR. I'd only add to Moria's e...Thank you, TR. I'd only add to Moria's excellent comment that health insurance/decent health care comes into the mix too as part of an infrastructure.<br /><br />I had an abortion when I was 20; I think one of the most pernicious things about the debate is how rarely women name the experience, even though somewhere (I think) between 1/4 and 1/3 of adult women have had abortions. If I had been 30 at the time, and more settled, grown up, etc., I would not have done so; I do know it was the death of a hope, but it was not a baby. I agree with Obama that the best we can do now is do our best to reduce the circumstances in which women have abortions -- and that means real sex education, funding for family planning, etc. <br /><br />I also think that there is a level of fantasy going on, that if we get rid of legal abortion, we get rid of abortion. As a historian, I know that women have always found ways to have abortions, often without naming it. In the 17th C when taking the herbs that would "bring on my flowers" (induce a period) did not work, women often contrived to give birth alone and overlay the baby. This is not pretty. But it's history.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-7986719672181432672009-06-09T23:52:28.385-05:002009-06-09T23:52:28.385-05:00@jackdanielsblack-- I simply refuse to accept the ...@jackdanielsblack-- I simply refuse to accept the label that there are contending cultures of life and death, and that supporters of abortion rights are part of a culture of death. Abortion is not killing. (And neither is the pill-- just wait for those signs this weekend.) For me, abortion is a life-affirming decision for people who are already living. I have spent a lot of time with people on both sides of this issue, and in my personal experience the life affirming people I know support abortion rights.<br /><br />The denial of women's moral capacity that is both implicit and explicit in the anti-abortion movement is controlling, judgmental, and denying of the full humanity to women. That, to me, is a culture of death-- it is a culture that justifies murder in the case of Tiller, that justifies incredible harassment in an effort to deny women the basic equality of controlling not only reproduction, but who and what is welcome in an individual's body. It is an escape from freedom in the tradition of Fromm.<br /><br />I know you've advocated a full life ethic from conception to death-- but between those moments, without the individual capacity to own and control one's person, I don't see a life ethic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-86483953537477148172009-06-09T19:09:16.346-05:002009-06-09T19:09:16.346-05:00TR, good answer. I personally think that more pre...TR, good answer. I personally think that more pregnant teenagers (particularly white middle-class teenagers) get talked into an abortion than get talked out of one, but that's just me. Anyway, I think we have two cultures struggling against each other in this country -- a culture of life and a culture of death -- and that we need to always try to embrace life as best we can. Very Manichaean, I know, but that's what happens when you pick up your ethics in the 1940s from Irish nuns. I gather that you picked up your ethics from another source.<br /><br />What will be really funny is if future Supreme Court justice Sotomayor turns out to be pro-life (stranger things have happened in my lifetime). If this happens, I will be (as the kids say) ROFLMAO. Not likely, perhaps, but I can dream, can't I?JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-61865599959562253672009-06-09T18:04:30.925-05:002009-06-09T18:04:30.925-05:00During the 2004 election cycle, I got in repeated ...During the 2004 election cycle, I got in repeated arguments with progressives over Dennis Kucinich, whose record on abortion rights was very bad. I found again and again that progressives didn't see abortion rights as integral to a progressive politics. What surprised me most, though, was the number of women my age and younger who had adopted that line of argumentation- that abortion is a secondary struggle. My argument was that without freedom of reproductive control, women's bodies and labor would always be prevented from enjoying the labor, environmental, and trade dreams of a left-ish politics.<br /><br />It often fell on deaf ears. It was my feeling at the time and is my feeling now that this is due to the process you describe above-- to ceding rhetorical ground to the anti's, to a defensive politics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-83573871247708117762009-06-09T16:09:01.641-05:002009-06-09T16:09:01.641-05:00So happy to have seen this.I have often wondered w...So happy to have seen this.I have often wondered when people will understand,really understand ,that it is and has never been about the "life" of the fetus but rather about keeping women "in their place".Thank you!delightwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10794594064600643393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-91136733110529239402009-06-09T16:06:55.294-05:002009-06-09T16:06:55.294-05:00Jack:
Natch: I'm not about terminating fetus...Jack:<br /><br />Natch: I'm not about terminating fetuses whenever possible. Legal, safe and accessible abortion for minors is not the equivalent of forcing abortion on minors.Tenured Radicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703980598547163290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-11567228655482816562009-06-09T14:46:49.520-05:002009-06-09T14:46:49.520-05:00"And girls, by the way, are women too". ..."And girls, by the way, are women too". I trust this means that in addition to supporting a minor's right to abortion even if her parents are opposed, you would also support, say, the decision of a 14 year old girl who was making straight A's in school if she got pregnant and decided to have the baby and raise it herself even if her parents disapproved. After all, autonomy is autonomy, right?JackDanielsBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285871354441074406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-16473370759921507712009-06-09T14:32:58.995-05:002009-06-09T14:32:58.995-05:00I'm in complete agreement with you on this. We...I'm in complete agreement with you on this. We're letting down ourselves as well as the next generations when we don't ensure that women, everywhere, receive education about their bodies as well as the tools to properly care for themselves. (Moria, I love your comment and agree with so much of what you've written.)<br /><br />I support a woman's right to an abortion without question. Furthermore, I support the mission of Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, NARAL, Planned Parenthood and other groups to give women the information and tools to have safely sex when they're ready and to protect themselves from any problematic consequences. Anything less is just unacceptable in my book.Janicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14093558563358431804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-3837466889060648862009-06-09T13:13:43.963-05:002009-06-09T13:13:43.963-05:00Thank you for writing this.Thank you for writing this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36212542.post-42663538017269412722009-06-09T12:25:58.233-05:002009-06-09T12:25:58.233-05:00TR, I dig it as usual. Still, a few thoughts.
One...TR, I dig it as usual. Still, a few thoughts.<br /><br />One argument in favor of retaining "pro-choice," despite its euphemistic status, might be something like defending a "seamless garment" of our leftist own. You suggest that lack of access to contraception, coupled with lack of access to information, is at the root of this country's reproductive problems. I agree with you. This is where "choice" is such a powerful term: the "right" to choose on its own is not enough without the infrastructure in place that gives people - not only, but especially, women - the <i>tools</i> with which to make an informed choice. AND, I contend, that choice has to include not only contraceptive methods but also a whole range of choices relating to sex and gender: whether or not to have sex, with whom, and when (abstinence education, as you point out, drives directly against empowering especially young women to make this choice); <i>how</i> to have sex (it's more than just penis-vagina penetration, kids!); that there's a range of options (so many flavors of queer!) for both sexual practice and gender identification; that there is an entire network of NGOs out there ready to help (no young woman's cell phone should be without the telephone numbers of a rape crisis center and a Planned Parenthood); what sexual abuse and assault are, how to protect oneself against them, and what to do in the event of their occurrence. Material tools, too: mandatory access to free safer sex supplies (not just condoms!) in public schools would be a fine start. <br /><br />Our definition of "choice" has become too narrow. If we stand by "in favor of legal access to abortion," in the name of avoiding the weakness of euphemism, we risk losing the complexity and breadth of the problem at hand.moriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12390704103460109691noreply@blogger.com